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 Post subject: Disney! Disney! Disney!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:37 pm 
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Jostapha and I seem to have a difference of opinion regarding Disney, so I am taking it to the Fight Club! Yeah!!! :smt066

So, to draw a few lines, I am not taking about Disney as a company. Sure, they have some shady practices, but I don't know a major corporation that doesn't. You wanna bitch about Corporate Disney, then go ahead.

But! You can't say nothing about the quality of their animated films. Sure, they are not 100% winners, but Disney puts out the best American animation, bar none. I agree they are in a dry spell currently, and if it wasn't for Pixar then things would look dismall, but I know they will come out of it.

Sure, they play fast and loose with the folk tales, but that is perfectly acceptable. The nature of folk tales is that there is no "one true version". They have been told and re-told for generations, each time altered to suit the needs of the current population. Disney mearly updates the stories for modern morality and sensibility, in the same way that they have been updated many, many times before.

On top of that, their animation is flawless and beautiful. It is hard to find someone who does it better. Even in Japan, the land of animation, Disney studios are acknowledged as the masters. The first person to do animation in Japan, Osama Tesuka, just copied what he saw in "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves."


So lets hear it, Jostapha! What bad do you got to say about Disney?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:46 pm 
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MightyAtom wrote:
Jostapha and I seem to have a difference of opinion regarding Disney, so I am taking it to the Fight Club! Yeah!!! :smt066
That's exactly what Fight Club is for, and I'm actually kinda glad to have a new rant thread, because the first one has just gone into recipes. And I'm not gonna pull my punches here, this is Fight Club. Violent and aggressive disagreement is a go here. That's why Fight Club is a whole separate section. Here we take off the kid gloves and go rounds with each other, just like in the Fight Club movie. We're all friends on the outside, but watch out in here.

MightyAtom wrote:
So lets hear it, Jostapha! What bad do you got to say about Disney?
You're kidding, right? Where do I start?

MightyAtom wrote:
So, to draw a few lines, I am not taking about Disney as a company. Sure, they have some shady practices...
Granted. I'll stay away from their corporate policy and focus on their social butchery. No problem, there's plenty of material there to work with. Permit me to draw another line, so there's no mistaking what we're fighting about here:
MightyAtom wrote:
But! You can't say nothing about the quality of their animated films... Disney puts out the best American animation, bar none... On top of that, their animation is flawless and beautiful. It is hard to find someone who does it better.
Let me say right off the bat that I have no opinion one way or the other about their filmmaking skills. I couldn't care less if the drawings are pretty or not. I'm not attacking their drawings, it's entirely irrelevant to me. Moot point if you're arguing Disney with me. I don't give a rat's ass about their little cartoon pictures. That's not what my complaint is about.


*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*

This is what my complaint is about:
MightyAtom wrote:
Sure, they play fast and loose with the folk tales, but that is perfectly acceptable.
That is exactly where I draw the line. No, it is not even vaguely acceptable. Not even a little bit. That which you brush off as irrelevant is the entire thing I take issue with. They are butchers, and that's all there is to it. Adapting is not the same as bastardizing. Disney does not adapt stories. They ream stories up the ass from beginning to end, perform a little vivisection on them, and then sell them to an ignorant and passive populace.

MightyAtom wrote:
The nature of folk tales is that there is no "one true version". They have been told and re-told for generations, each time altered to suit the needs of the current population.
Not mirror-image reversed endings! You go too far with this statement. Oral tradition stories are all about remaining true to the one true version. They may be altered in word and phrasing, details and nation, but never in meaning, never in concept, never in their messages! That is the "one true version" of fairy tales which I assert does exist.

The story of Cinderella is a great example, because as a folk tale it goes waaaaayyyy back in time. The ancient Greco-Egyptian version of Cinderella where her name is Rhodopis is considered the oldest version, having been written down in the first century BC. It's also found in China in the late 800s, Europe, Africa... it's a universal story with several universal key points that DO NOT CHANGE no matter how much the details change. Disney has gone and rewritten the moral of the story. That is their crime in my eyes.

Give me an example that contradicts this and I'll think about the possibility of considering the idea of contemplating your absurd statement. What stories have been redone to suit the populace of the time before our time? Little Mermaid? Jungle Book? Peter Pan? Pinnochio? Alice in Wonderland? These came out of books that were not oral tradition first. What was adapted and changed and fucked up before the monsters got hold of it? Snow White? Sleeping Beauty? Cinderella? Aladdin? Please...

Fairy tales serve a purpose in culture; they are parables to illustrate reality and how to deal with it.

In the older European versions, when Cinderella finds out about the ball, she earns her "fairy godmother's" (or more often her dead mother's) help, doesn't just sit about whining and then get her way. Some details change, certainly... sometimes she gets the magical help by purchasing a magical item with money she earned from working. When she's being chased and hunted like an animal she uses her wits to escape. A heroine who earns her happy-ever-after. Moral of the story? Don't sit on your fat ass waiting to be handed everything on a silver platter, git out there and earn it. Be clever, be strong, use your wits and your heart, and you will come through adversity with self-respect and honour. Disney turned that girl into a simpering victim who just sort of slumps around. Hell, even the mice do her dressmaking for her. She contributes nothing of her own to making her world better, but she gets everything a girl could want by the end of the story.

What kind of "morality and sensibility" is that teaching the children of America? Look at today's society. Several generations now (they've been in business so long) of children who've been taught to think that life is supposed to be easy, and you don't have to take any personal responsibility for anything. It works in the fairy tales, after all. Sit back and hold out your hand and you'll get what you want. Then they get out in the real world and discover that that's not how it works. You do have to be clever, courageous and strong today just as you have always had to. Culture may have changed, we've been trained to think contrary to reality, but reality doesn't care about our wishes, and it has not changed to fit that world image, Atom. Reality is still hard, ugly and brutal. Where have you been all your life, under a rock? Maybe a Disney-induced rock? I know you're not that naieve. :evil:

MightyAtom wrote:
Disney merely updates the stories for modern morality and sensibility, in the same way that they have been updated many, many times before.
No they don't - they dictate modern morality and sensibility by spoon-feeding the next generation pure crap. There's a difference between responding to our culture and creating our culture. You have to be able to see the crap, Atom. How can you be blind to it?

Fairy tales are society's lessonbooks for how to survive in a harsh world, put into a simple story format for children to understand. At least, they used to be. Now the harshness of reality has not changed, it's still there and it still sucks. And fairy tales are still there for children to learn from, but Disney's fucked up the message, revised the survival handbook of life until it's unusable. But that doesn't mean people no longer look to those fairy tales as an example of how to live. They do. That's the crux of the problem. We're being given useless role models and actively poisonous teachings on how to live. Puree of fairy tale.

I can hardly wait to see the Disney version of the Gulf War. Oh wait a minute, I already have. It's called "the news."

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:54 pm 
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Wifey actually purchased C-III (she got a $15 off coupon in the mail, no less), so... of course :heart: , I watched it with her.

:smt014

Oh, barf. :puke: Where do I start?

First off, miss saccharine is having a picnic with prince barfle, and one of the sisty uglers steals the fat fairy's magic wand and gives it to the evil step-mum, who turns the fairy mudfuther into stone, then waves it in the air to turn back time to where Cindyfeller, I mean, miss saccharine, has the other slipper. Evil step-mum smashes the slipper and locks miss saccharine into (somewhere; her room, I think - I wasn't paying that much attention). Then she hexes the prints and mushes his memory of just who it was he danced with.

Anyway, one of the sisty uglers is set up to be the next princess, but she has an attack of conscience (yeah, I believe that), and refuses to marry prince barfle because "he doesn't love me for myself!" and so blows it for her mum and her sister.

As I recall in the original story, didn't the entire stepfamily have to hobble across a bed of red-hot coals, then were flambéed at the royal reception? That would have been a much better ending. Could've been turned into stake tartar or something...


Oh, well, so much for staying true to the story. But, at least, he didn't kill off old Trusty...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:09 pm 
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Your ignorance on these matters is astounding! :shock: (How is that for Fight Club style? :wink: )


Since you want to go with Cinderella....

Disney's version is taken from Charles Perrault, a 17th century author who is considered to have invented the fairy tale as a genre. Basically he would collect various peasent's folk tales, remove all the "courseness", as he considered it, then clean up the story into a witty little tale that could be told in fashionable salons held by the French aristocracy.

All of the stuff that you probably think is "Disney," the pumpkin coach with mice into horses, the Fairy Godmother, etc....are all pure Perrault. Disney just adapted his version of the story.

Also, in MANY (if not most....) versions of the Cinderella legend Cinderella herself accomplishes nothing more than being beautiful.

For instance, the Irish lversion "Fair, Brown and Trembling" has the shoe-fitting beauty as just a passive object to be won, as her Prince has to do battle with neighboring Princes in order to marry her once she has been revealed.

Same with the Norwegian "Katie Woodencloak". She gets magical assistance, in the form of a magical bull, who fixes all of her problems for her, and then even died for her so Katie Woodencloak could use his skin to make her Prince-winning ball gown out of.


It seems to me that you are reading into the stories what you want them to be about, more than what they are about. Cinderella is not, and has never been, a story of a girl who achieves something for herself through bravery, intelligence, etc....It is the story of a persecuted heroin, who's main aspect is being beautiful, being forced to conceal her beauty until circumstances force it to be revealed, which results in a fortuitous marriage to a wealthy man.

Even Rhodopis...what did she have going for her? Mainly that she was fair-skinned, a white girl amongst a dark-skinned nation. So she got a pair of special shoes, and eventually married the Pharaoh. With a little magical help from Horus, of course.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:35 pm 
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Showoff. :butthead:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:42 am 
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I'm very much aware of Perrault and his works. Doesn't change my argument. Perrault calls her:
Quote:
"...of unparalleled goodness and sweetness of temper, which she took from her mother, who was the best creature in the world."*
1) virtuous...
Quote:
"The poor girl bore it all patiently, and dared not tell her father, who would have scolded her; for his wife governed him entirely."*
2) patient and wise enough to hold her tongue...
Quote:
"They also consulted Cinderella in all these matters, for she had excellent ideas, and her advice was always good. Indeed, she even offered her services to fix their hair, which they very willingly accepted. "
"Anyone but Cinderella would have fixed their hair awry, but she was very good, and dressed them perfectly well."*
3) Generous: helpful even to her persecutors.

Quote:
Also, in MANY (if not most....) versions of the Cinderella legend Cinderella herself accomplishes nothing more than being beautiful.
Not even in Perrault's version is this true. Try again. She wasn't a wuss or a weakling. But Disney came along and "bibbity-bobbity-booed" her into glory while she stood around going "ooh, aah..."

Also read up on several other versions from many other cultures. I still find the same moral, up until the Mouse got hold of it.

Quote:
It seems to me that you are reading into the stories what you want them to be about, more than what they are about.
Cinderella being deserving of her rewards is hardly a concept I made up on my own. It's out there to be found in plenty of places. Is it not possible that you're declining to see a rather well-recognized and well-documented theme rather than me creating one?

Quote:
It is the story of a persecuted heroin, who's main aspect is being beautiful, being forced to conceal her beauty until circumstances force it to be revealed, which results in a fortuitous marriage to a wealthy man.
Of course she's persecuted. There'd be no need for courage and wits and self-reliance if there were no adversity. As for being forced to conceal your own beauty... Why on earth couldn't she wash her face and march up and say "Hey dude, check me out, I'm a hottie!" Of course she could. It wouldn't have worked, but she could have done it all the same. She made a choice to go through it the hard way and stick it out. Patience is a virtue right alongside courage and wits. In fact, it requires the use of your courage and wits to be patient and not blow your chances at happy-ever-after. You're not giving her or the cultures and storytellers who needed her very much credit.

Quote:
Same with the Norwegian "Katie Woodencloak". She gets magical assistance, in the form of a magical bull, who fixes all of her problems for her, and then even died for her so Katie Woodencloak could use his skin to make her Prince-winning ball gown out of.
You forgot to mention that Katie used courage to escape from her home (c'mon, a talking bull said "hey babe, they're gonna kill us, let's go!")and follow the more than a little gruesome help offered by the bull, who befriended her why? It wasn't random, it was because they were both about to be killed. Common interest. Coz she was a nice person when everyone else around her was shitty. Coz she was brave enough to help him escape. He was beholden to her.

After the bull was dead, she relied on her courage and wits to practically woo the prince herself rather than the other way 'round! "Hey there, I'm here to help!" "Get lost, ugly!" over and over again, and she never quit. Without any magical bull's help she figured out how to win the guy. Any wussy girl would've sat at home and let her stepmother kill her. Same moral: Earn Your Happiness.

Quote:
All of the stuff that you probably think is "Disney," the pumpkin coach with mice into horses, the Fairy Godmother, etc....are all pure Perrault. Disney just adapted his version of the story.
Of course they adapted it. They adapt everything! Sorry, I'm still seeing the same moral I have been asserting in the examples you're trying to use to contradict me. Even Perrault, with all his mice and pumpkins, was perverted away from it's original meaning to suit Disney's tastes.

* wrote:
# Source: Andrew Lang, The Blue Fairy Book (London: Longmans, Green, and Co., ca. 1889), pp. 64-71.
# Lang's source: Charles Perrault, Histoires ou contes du temps passé, avec des moralités: Contes de ma mère l'Oye (Paris, 1697).
Notice, if you will, the title Perrault's stories have as well "Stories or tales of time spent, with moralities: Tales of my mother Oye" What more do you want?


I stand by my assertion: Disney's evil. Try harder.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:33 pm 
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Well, it seems like Walt Disney agrees with you:

Quote:
"She believed in dreams, all right, but she also believed in doing something about them. When Prince Charming didn't come along, she went over to the palace and got him."
- Walt Disney, speaking of Cinderella in 1949.


What more do you want? :razz:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:15 pm 
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MightyAtom wrote:
Well, it seems like Walt Disney agrees with you...
What more do you want? :razz:
For it to be obvious enough that someone as erudite as you could see it as being self-evident without searching for a week trying to find evidence to disprove it. You vehemently disagreed with that analysis of the story. That ":razz:" of yours really should be a ":oops:", now don't you think? You've only bolstered my argument. Seems they pulled the wool over your eyes, now consider that they do this to children who do not apply the least bit of critical thinking! Also, after Walt's death the company's standards took a distinct ethical nosedive, and things have only gone from bad to worse. The earlier mutilations were much less severe than the ones in the last 20 years or so.

You were trying to convince me of something, weren't you?

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 Post subject: Re: Disney! Disney! Disney!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:55 pm 
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Talk about bringing up an old topic! #-o

Since when does Disney need to be accurate in regards to their movies or fairy tales? Disney in itself is a fantasy. It gives people the chance to escape into a whole seperate relm. How many of you parents have denied your kids the joy of watching Cinderella, or Snow White, or Mulan or The Little Mermaid? They make fun for adults and kids alike. It's not a science. Life is too short to destroy things that simply make us happy. Just my two cents :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Disney! Disney! Disney!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:40 am 
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I'd consider letting my kids watch those movies after making sure they'd read the originals and understood what Disney had done. Certainly not before they were able to understand the concept, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Disney! Disney! Disney!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:37 am 
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Love this thread... you all might be interested in a CBS Radio Workshop production from 1956 called: "Speaking of Cinderella - If the Shoe Fits".

From the introduction:

VINCENT PRICE: Ladies and gentlemen, Miss Lurene Tuttle and I have been having a little argument as to the relative merits of...

LURENE TUTTLE: Having a little DISCUSSION regarding two different schools of literary thought. I have been maintaining to Mr. Price...

PRICE: You may call me Vincent.

TUTTLE: ...oh, thank you...

PRICE: You're welcome.

TUTTLE: ...Vincent. I've been maintaining that our whole lives are enriched by the warmth and beauty of Romanticism.

PRICE: Romanticism, my dear Lurene, is for those weak, lily-livered individuals who haven't the courage to face the realities of life. Realism IS life. Now, I'll take Eugene O'Neil, any day, in preference to... Winnie-the-Pooh.

TUTTLE: And I'll take Cinderella, any day rather than Hedda Gabler.

PRICE: Cinderella? Now she's EXACTLY what I mean: a smudge-faced juvenile delinquent if you ask me.

TUTTLE: It's only one of the most beautiful fairy tales ever told! I defy any realist to tell such a moving story.

PRICE: Oh, you would, eh? Well, very well. To prove my point, I'll tell the REAL story of Cinderalla.

TUTTLE: Very well. But Ladies first...

PRICE: Please.

TUTTLE: To prove my point, I'll tell the Romantic story of Cinderella...

========================

You can find this here and there around the web, but I'll be posting it this Friday in my Listening Booth and it'll be up for two weeks.

http://www.otrplotspot.com/listeningBooth.html


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 Post subject: Re: Disney! Disney! Disney!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:21 am 
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Thanks sirdle, I'm sending that site address to my sister, who just the other day complained to me that many of her radio book sites are going defunct. Plus, as I earlier mentioned, wifey loves anything and everything Cinderella'ish. If they tell me, I'll post if they liked it. Merry Xmas.

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 Post subject: Re: Disney! Disney! Disney!
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Disney should stay out of fantasy/ action adventure
John Carter being a great example of a great book gone wrong, it might have been titled Mupets Go To Mars,
the funny thing is that Marvel Films is a subsidiary of Disney , and they have been getting it right. So please no more Disney , no more...................................................... (especially Tron: Legacy, hopeless).


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